The IT Skeptic - Comments for "Is ITIL V3 Foundations designed to suit the needs of the students or the trainers?"

Theres no easy bridge between v2 and v3 philosophy

ianclayton — Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:59:27 +0000

Hi Alex -long time no see/chat

I hope I did not imply anyone was stealing. In the past their was liberal intepretation of how to respect copyright and trademark, at least far more liberal than here in the US! The recent IPR Guideline announcement by OGC cleared that one up! I'm just not sure it is feasible to develop a book that will bridge v2 and v3. The recent syallabi issued by APMG are testament to that...

V3 has just about everything v2 had in the way of practice-level (process) information. It also pulls forward bits from v1. The big difference is in philosophy and approach. V2 was centered around enhance/replace a process area as listed within the v2 books. At the heart of v3 is the service lifecycle.

V3, with CSI, implies you find a problem within the lifecycle and make a change, an improvement - that makes sense to most if read as though small and incremental, not replacement. The area of change is scoped by a lifecycle stage - similar to how improvements are applied in some business operations, such as manufacturing. This approach has given us success at some of the biggest US accounts since our inception in 1996.

We feel a third book is needed - but to explain the difference in philosophy.

Who gets to drop V2? (cross-link)

Alexander Kist — Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:04:00 +0000

Second hand only goes so far.

see http://www.itskeptic.org/node/389#comment-1909

(@Ian Clayton) I never meant to suggest in that thread that people should STEAL the V2 IP but simply that there should be ways to continue publication of IP that is DIScontinued by its owners.
I've had this discussion with several people in the periphery of the itSMF NL conference and there seems to be some consensus that a UK Crown Copyright can be used by "the market" as long as the appropriate fees are paid.

(@Jan van Bon): building on the idea of V3 vs L3 it seems to me that someone in the publishing business could put together a Service Support and a Service Delivery book adapted to "connect with" V3. Shouldn't be too hard either as all the processes are still there.
I'm sure the certification industry would be thrilled to put together exams.

embrace the advent of APMG with open arms

skeptic — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 18:46:10 +0000

Two points:

I assume then Ian that you embrace the advent of APMG with open arms as an essential step forward to achieving some consistency between ATOs.

And mentions of SM-I or ITSMBOK aren't plugs? :-D

I apologise...

ianclayton — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 18:06:42 +0000

Jan

I rescind the plug comment and apologise. Unnecessary comment - and it prevents or inhibits this type of useful conversation in an open forum. It was just this was not your first reference to this book in the Skeptic's blogs.

As for the Intro to ITSM V2 book - it was an ok book. It did not address Financial management properly, along with a few other areas. My problem was with EXIN using it as the basis for their exams because it was cheaper and better formatted than the 'official' books. Unfortunately, it did ADD terms and left out others and these crept into official exam questions. A similar situation occurred with the itSMF glossary of terms and ISEb exams. For example, root cause and service quality plan were dropped out of V2 books but included in teh glossary - so they appeared in questions.

This uncoordinated situation left us as an ATO to use the official books, the itSMF glossary, the Intro to ITSM using ITIl V2 book, and common sense to prepare students for the exams....

Study Guides have to be the definitive reference and this will be the challenge for APMG/TSO. The study guide will obviate the need for folks to buy any other book - including the official Introduction to the Service Lifecycle, which is also missing key elements found within exam questions, and the five core books!

What I meant was the book should not be used on its own to study for the exam unless there is proven consistency and it is recognized or has been deliberately written to cover all exam aspects. Unfortunately, the latest Manager bridge sample questions indicate all too well how easy it is for APMG to go outside of the official books when asking a question!

Anyone can write a book on almost anything. Look at how many books are out there on the PMP to help with study. They ALL use consistent language and respect the core PMBOK. We need consistency, I welcome the complimentary copy (do you have a secure ebook version?) and will respond to you in private with any observations. If it is a stand-alone contribution, not designed as a definitive study aid, I forsee no problems....

Oh I love my wife too but its a bit of a stretch to relate that to a product! ... :-}

the love for my wife

jvbon — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 17:43:30 +0000

Ian,
if this was a plug, I would have concealed it. Besides, if a comment like this is perceived as a plug, it would mean we'd never be able to discuss any publication here, even if it would be free downloadable, since there always is an interest attached to any product - even to the love of a man for his wife.
So let's forget about the 'plug' thing.

The flaws in the V2 edition must have escaped the eyes of lots of other ITIL experts: I think the text has been reviewed by at least 150 people, most of them very close to ITIL, even the authors, and in various editions.
I will be the last one to deny that there are errors in any of the 50+ books I've produced. But if that means that you won't use them, I think you're the one suffering most. Besides: if the fact that there are errors in a book would mean that we shouldn't use it, then we should forget about the ITIL books (V1, V2 and V3) ASAP...... If I see the public databases with errors found, it wouldn't stand a chance. And the TSO Introduction is in no way different from the rest. Read it and see for yourself.
So this comes down to the one question: does a publication add value for you? I'll send you a copy of the itSMF Introduction; you can buy the TSO one yourself. If you've read them both, I'd be happy to discuss added value. But not in a public forum - it obviously would be perceived as a plug.

Nice plug but...

ianclayton — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 16:05:02 +0000

Jan

Nice plug but.... the previous Introduction to ITSM book had flaws and had some items added and other completely missing so forgive me if I wait until I actually see a copy. By the way, did you know that it was favored and used by EXIN (not ISEB) as the basis for generating their V2 exam questions without anyone knowing! (I can disclose this now). As an example of the confusion caused, a question in the v2 Foundation exam transposed 'distributed (as used in Intro to ITSM book)' for 'local (as used in official ITIL book)'. So folks got the question wrong unless they had read both books! I suspect APMG will use this as a viable pressure point to encourage folks to use the 'OFFICIAL' books.

That said, I'm sure the book will be a cracker, but its more likely folks will rely upon the 'official self study' guide from APMG/OGC/TSO. Another book that should have accompanied the launch of the syllabus and exams! Check out my ITIL Hop-Scotch article for how many rollout steps (oops sorry deployment) they actually executed.

V3 or L3

jvbon — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 09:30:42 +0000

There will be considerable demand for V2 books, so that may help you through the winter. I've heard from several countries that they rather ignore the entire V3 stuff and just concentrate on V2 - which is completely understandable if you know anything about maturity schemes. Actually, I think V3 should never have been called V3 but rather something like L3 (level 3).

second-hand V2 books

skeptic — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 09:24:02 +0000

I like it. I'll do one for you soon as I get time ( a precious commodity since I'm doing real work right now)

Actually I reckon the business opportunity is for second-hand V2 books, since TSO is so hell-bent on only publishing V3. They'll try to force the market by retiring V2 and someone will clean up on Amazon.

Foundations Book is already available

jvbon — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 08:55:00 +0000

Ian,
the TSO book may be missing a number of key concepts but the updated Foundations from itSMF isn't. It covers all elements of the syllabus and a lot more. In the past, many Foundations students from all over the world have used the itSMF Foundations publication (or the Introduction to ITSM which covered the same content) to prepare for their exams. The updated V3 edition covers all the material you need to learn for a V3 Foundations exam. Like its V2 predecessor, it's cheap and its going to be available in several languages: the first translation projects are already running for French, Japanese, Spanish and German.
You can check the content at the itSMF website: http://www.itsmfbooks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1372. A sample of a few chapters is available at http://www.vhpshop.com/Media/SampleFiles/9789087530570smpl.pdf

Skeptic shop - merchandising opportunity

Alison Adams — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 08:02:44 +0000

Dear Skeptic,
based on this and most of the other V3 threads, I think you need to mod your 'It'll be fixed in V3' merchandise to append a scrawled on 'SP1'. How much would that annoy APMG ?! I think I will set up a stand selling them at itSMF events !
Alison

Of course they care...

HenryGale — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:22:01 +0000

They care enough to make such a hash of the release of the exams, they are not available except through ATOs, so we're safe for a while yet ;-)

HG
Helen Morris ITIL Trainer / Consultant

ITIL Qualification Scheme Hop-Scotch

ianclayton — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:14:11 +0000

Liz

The ITSM View had an interesting opinion on the approach taken to develop all ITIL exams - I took a liberty today and expanded on it via my own blog.... in the form of 20 steps to developing a credential - some of which could be viewed as part of the UKAS requirements/ISO 17024 and what we have been forced to include in the Service Management Qualification Scheme approved on a preliminary basis by ANSI.

Perhaps these are clues as to the reasons UKAS suspended their PRINCE certification scheme???

Good news - no need for ATOs to teach ITIL Foundation!

ianclayton — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:05:46 +0000

Helen

Yup - been watching that space for a while. On the downside it will mean us ATOs will hardly be called upon to teach a certification class as I feel folks will duck the $1500-2000 investment and take a pop at the exam. On the upside we will likely have a new opportunity - the 'ITIL Recovery' class for those who self studied and failed the exam without taking a formal class and don't know why.....

Does OGC/APMG/TSO care about an ATOs business plan in all this? Or are we just the marketing arm and dustpan and brush brigade?

Pass the exams

HenryGale — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 21:53:07 +0000

Don't worry - the new book due out this month will clear up all our ills - 'Passing your ITIL Foundation Exam', as approved by APMG. Not quite sure which version of the syllabus it will address, but apparently it helps for the bridging exam too.

I am finally about to take the exam in November and am frankly terrified at the prospect, bearing in mind I hold the V2 Managers Certificate, have read and re-read the V3 books and have prepared course materials for V3. This exam should hold no fears, but with all of the confusion regarding syllabus and moderation, I can only hope that I manage to pass! If I feel this way, heaven help "an ordinary punter"

HG
Helen Morris ITIL Trainer / Consultant

Foundation paper(s) STILL being moderated!

ianclayton — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 21:17:07 +0000

Liz

Since you are quoting from the same communique we get, I thought it adding the closing statement:

"Moderation on the recent Foundation paper referenced in the previous communication is nearing completion, and it is expected results will be released from next week. The moderation has resulted in a significant increase in the pass rate for this paper, ISEB requested a statement from APMG to explain the reasons for the poor initial result on this paper, as soon as it is received it will be forwarded to all ATO’s."

We have had less than stellar results of late after a good start. The only change has been candidates and exam papers. The candidates are V2 certificate holders. We complained - probably contributing to this latest round of moderation. It begs the question... "WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!!!!"

My prediction remains - they will revert to something like the Introduction to ITIL Service Lifecycle book... which by the way is missing a number of key concepts in the exam - such as the System V model...

V3 Foundation Syllabus amended!

Liz Gallacher — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:27:09 +0000

Latest news
Following the announcement on 12th October from the Qualification Board regarding the issues that have been raised regarding the time spent on Service Strategy and CSI at Foundation level, I have just received this from ISEB.
"Further to the APMG communication sent on 12 October, ISEB have received several enquiries concerning the proposed changes to the V3 Foundation Syllabus. During the last conference call with APMG this was discussed, and EI’s were advised that there is a proposal to issue an interim replacement Syllabus, which is adjusting the time to be spent on these 2 areas, with a potential reduction of approx. 2.5 hours in the overall learning time at the Foundation level.....As per the previous notification any such changes will be reflected in the Foundation examination papers, further communication will be sent in this respect, including a confirmation of the date of the changes to Examinations, once this information has been received from APMG."

So - I have V3 classes to deliver, and training materials to prepare. Until the new exams are available, I will need to cover the old syllabus, which is now universally agreed to be unbalanced.
Could this not all have been avoided, with draft papers available much earlier to ATOs? If you waited for V3 to settle down before sitting it, you can congratulate yourself for your foresight!
Liz Gallacher
Freelance Trainer and Consultant

ITIL V3

David Jones — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:38:05 +0000

Having just read the comments on V3 I would like to add my comments.

I am and have been a very committed to ITL concepts for the best part of 15 years. I am a consultant and lecturer as well as being a V2 examiner for the BCS, so I feel I have enough experience to comment.

V2 did need to be tidied up - anyone who has worked with it for any length of time will know that. The concepts in V2 were not just in Support and Delivery but in a few other books as well i.e. Business Perspective, Planning to Implement, ICT, Application Management and Security Management. Most people (and I fear Pierre Bernard in particular) seem to forget this. That the concepts of Strategy and Design were not addressed is true and that of course is where V3 now becomes very useful. My main worry here is that there is a lot of nonsense being spoken about "must go", "must do", "must upgrade" to V3. ITIL V2 concepts and qualifications are still valid and will still deliver benefits to both the organisation and the individual.

I am also concerned that Pierre Bernard seems to think that the Foundation course was only 2 days, the original syllabus was constructed to be delivered over 3 days and it is only in the last year / 2 years that organisations like Pink Elephant have been able to deliver it in 2 days - which did require the examining body to agree and accredit the course materials seperately from the usual 3 day event (by the way I worked for Pink Elephant/Pink Roccade for 8 years). So the view that 3 days for V3 is acceptable is somewhat jaundiced I feel. I have colleagues who have delivered some of the V3 courses and believe the whole event to be rushed.

Personal view is that V3 will take some time to settle down and even then I still do not believe that not all people who work in IT will need to understand the Strategy and Design concepts. Far better I feel to have the Foundation focus on Transition, Operation and Improvement phases. The Strategy and Design could come in at the Capability and Lifecycle levels (V2 Pratitioner) and then go on to be explored in even more detail in the Diploma levels (V2 Managers).

Course results

Alison Adams — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 08:42:41 +0000

An unexpected conclusion to this particular course – I received the results today and apparently everyone passed. Even the delegate who only managed 18/40 in the mock paper that by all accounts was a lot easier than the real exam paper.
Is this what moderation means ?
I would so love to see those answer papers.
Alison

Market forces aren't

Visitor — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:23:07 +0000

Market forces aren't helping. I understand the first printing of v3 sold out. While the publisher will certainly make more, the books are becoming harder and harder to find in the US. The price of used copies keep creeping up.

It is theft for people to distribute ITIL books

skeptic — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:40:38 +0000

Hi Ramesh

No.

The books are copyright material. It is theft for people to distribute them without payment. You can purchase them from Amazon or from TSO.

For other readers: many of the forums have request such as these for pirated copies of ITIL materials, both books and training materials. I did an article recently on the thieves who work eBay.

There is a community who cannot or will not pay for ITIL and operate openly soliciting and delivering copyright material.