The IT Skeptic - Comments for "Castle ITIL further degrade the standards of ITIL V3 certification and training"

It has been hard enough

tim malone — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 23:50:10 +0000

It has been hard enough making sure the 12 people that deserve to be/should be in the room already for intermediate training.

Increasing the size to 18 will just mean you have even more people who shouldn't/don't want to be attending that level of training. You can't blame the client, if they can get more people through the same training program, why wouldn't they send more candidates.

Sure, in a perfect would I would be happy instructing a class with 18 enthusiastic students. I'll let you know if that happens.... :)

Speedlimit

mbuzina — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 12:10:59 +0000

Hi Rob,

Germans do not argue for 200 kph speed limits (highest limit is 130 kph). They just don't put limits up where they don't need them. Yes, you may drive 200 kph (and more, 250 is still OK) on some roads and still German traffic is one of the safest.

P.S.: I just had to jump into this discussion, sorry ;-)

P.P.S.: The class room limit ist (to my opinon) not the big issue on training quality. The crammed syllabus, the inadquate methods of the exams, the overall targetting of training at maximising short term profits is the biggest issue.

I wouldn't call them friends :-(

DavidM — Sun, 04 Jul 2010 05:17:32 +0000

I've got a different word for the folks at Acend Corp Learning... starting with verm... You know what I think ought to happen to them (both the legal part and the part that isn't that pretty).

I've been a consultant in the ITSM space since before it had a name -- but that's as a consultant. I've make a career cleaning up after other "consultants" (term used as label, not capability) so I understand the desire to keep our profession from being not just degraded, but basically insulted by people who do not have a clue.

So, no I don't think trainer quality is consistent. But I'm not convinced that allowing class size to be a max of 18 automatically means that every class is going to suffer either. In truth, I don't believe that you do, either. There isn't some magic threshold that is going all of a sudden expose bad consultants or bad trainers for what they are. Ultimately they all do that by themselves, without our help.

Most of the public classes I've taught have been under the current limit; I don't expect that to change just because the limit has been raised. I've taught several private classes that were over the old limit. I don't really care -- I'll play the hand I'm dealt.

I've had excellent success with all class size (your comments noted, thank you). The real determent has always been the desire and commitment of the students. I'll do everything I can to set them up for success with the exam. The one thing I cannot do is take the exam for them -- they have to prepare and want to pass and be willing to do the work, spend the time, and study. Class size does not change that.

David

professional standards

skeptic — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 07:28:00 +0000

I make a large chunk of my living out of ITIL, and I probably will always make my living out of the ITSM profession. Like any other professional, I have a right to object if I see the professional standards being degraded, as that reflects badly on my calling. Your reputation is strong David. That is not true of all trainers. Take my plagiarising friends at Acend Corporate Learning - think they even observe speed limits, let alone stay well below them?
Do you think trainer quality is consistent across the planet?

Castle ISACA

skeptic — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 07:19:11 +0000

Don't worry, Castle ISACA is indeed an area of interest for me. Right now it is not an area of interest for 95% of my readers, but that will change, especially if ITIL keeps travelling the same road it is on now.

And no i don't have a problem with Germans, well no more than anyone of European descent does...

It's your stage... :-)

DavidM — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 22:41:34 +0000

Rob,

After speaking with our daughters, I remembered that I've spent time working with both the Colleges of Education at the University of Pennsylvania and Temple University as well as Community Colleges in both Bucks and Montgomery counties.

We structured programs differently for adult learners (both credit and non-credit) than we did for undergrads and graduates students who never had "work time" following school. You're entitled to your opinion and it's just as valid as anyone else's opinion. I don't know your educational background (and I don't really care) and you don't know mine (and you probably don't care either :-)). I do know the people I worked with at these institutions have spend more time working and studying this field than both of us have lived if you combine everything. :-) There was a reason we did what we did. If you don't agree, fine... that's what makes the world go-round :-))

We're not talking about 120 people or 300 people or even 50 people in an ITIL class. We're talking about a MAXIMUM class size of 18 -- within the range that a good instructor should be able to handle.

As noted in a previous post, if you believe the increased class size POTENTIAL will sufficiently degrade quality, you are the customer! You won't get the value you seek; don't spend the money. That is absolutely the right thing for you to do. However, you also have to accept that the value proposition is based on your opinion, which affects your attitude. That is the precise point our daughter made. You don't want to find a way. Other people do. Guess what, both decision are the correct and proper decisions for the people who make them.

David

Well, I am not a German (I

coco — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 20:05:22 +0000

Well, I am not a German (I wished to be one these days). But I understand now that you have an issue with germans, might be one of those world cup fustration you just developed!!!

We are having a saying here in my home land, when 2 peoples are telling you that you are drunk you better go to sleep!! You are missing a lot of information regarding how really an ATO is working.

Coco

PS: I look forward when you will take on Castlle ISACA procedures as well - there is no limit on CobIT Foundation, so that gets degraded as well by your logic

Deming was right

DavidM — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:59:03 +0000

The training industry has the same problem that Smith Corona did (for those who don't know or remember, they made typewriters) during the evolution of computers and word processors.

Deming was right: "It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory."

David

Very different points of view

DavidM — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:53:25 +0000

Rob,

I don't agree with your analogy between driving and the classroom. So we start with a divergent point of view (I wonder if anyone would pay the two of us real money to do a point-counterpoint discussion -- might be fun :-)).

Would I like to see more quality control over instructor accreditation? That's s symptom, not the problem. The problem is standards to be an accredited instructor -- they're a bit low. Even so, yes I'd like to see more QC.

Similarly courseware QC is also a symptom, not the real problem. The courseware aligns with the syllabus. So again, it's not a QC issue as much as it is standards/content/syllabus issue. Change the syllabus and the resulting course material will change.

The core change I'd like to see is actually back in the core books to make the outside-in concept clearer. I'd like to see CSI more pervasively mentioned in each of the other 4 books. I'd like to see more consistency regarding the communications paths that are part of CSI and the resulting organizational maturity. I'd also like to see a companion volume that specifically covers how the 5 core books can be used to develop the "specialized organizational capabilities" mentioned in the Service Strategy book and also the ITIL Glossary.

Bottom line, I think there is an equating of symptom to problem (thus the divergent views mentioned above).

David

Inside-out v outside-in, Organizational Maturity, & ...

DavidM — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:16:36 +0000

Ian,

A point I didn't make in my original reply... I believe part of the responsibility of being an accredited ITIL instructor to make that point (morph from inside-out, I manage IT, to outside-in, we support the business need to create and retain customers). Though I agree, I'd be much happier if the ATO-supplied material was much more explicit in this area. The instructor should make clear that there are 2 critical definitions that students should consider remembering, the definition of Service Management (Service management is a set of specialized organizational capabilities for providing value to customers in the form of services.) and Service (A means of delivering value to customers by facilitating outcomes customers want to achieve without the ownership of specific costs and risks.).

Take it one step further and put the two together and you get this:

Service management is a set of specialized organizational capabilities for providing value to customers by facilitating outcomes customers want to achieve without the ownership of specific costs and risks.

The state of these specialized organizational capabilities represents the maturity level of the enterprise. That's something that too many people miss. At it's core, ITIL is more (or at least as much) about maturity than it is about processes. That said, I understand that it's easier for most people to focus on process as the end result. It takes a level of maturity to focus on the customer -- and that's where the focus should be! There's a reason CMMi has 5 levels, with process preceding optimization/improvement.

This stuff isn't new, Peter F Drucker wrote about the concept more than 30 years ago: Quality in a product or service is not what the supplier puts in, it's what the customer gets out and is willing to pay for. Drucker was the first (as far as I know) to link quality and value -- quality not from a quantitative defect-count basis, but a customer value basis: Customers pay only for what is of use to them and gives them value. Nothing else constitutes quality

The information is there! The problem is how it's used (and maybe how it's understood by both "practitioners" (term advisedly used) and maybe even some of the people who have created ITIL courseware).

There are good instructors, so-so instructors, and some who really should not be in front of the room. While the Exam Institute accreditation processes is supposed to assure some minimal quality level, I suspect the end result is have certs, have some teaching experience, OK. I'd like to see a "Master ITIL Instructor" level (to be consistent with ITIL Master, that would be based on student feedback, instructor experience, in addition to the standard stuff (maybe doubling or tripling the amount of classroom time required. A good instructor should be able to handle the larger classes (IF as noted the ATOs actually increase the size); the so-so instructors will have to learn; and the rest... see ya! (I hope :-))

The concept of outside-in are inherent in the concept of service management. I just wish more people got that message versus got a tool, we're doing it (whatever) or we're doing the processes and that's all we need. NUTS to both (and related) attitudes.

David

so much $%^&*

skeptic — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:34:58 +0000

If we're going to talk about so much $%^&* let's not circle back round to university teaching shall we? As we've already discussed, tertiary and adult education are not the same thing. I think there were 300 in my Accountancy 101 lectures. As I've discussed earlier, if that were my sole learning and I had five days to learn an ITIL Intermediate domain, it would not have worked. But I didn't - I had a whole year, with tutorials, assignments and study groups.

With respect, I don't hold your daughter's opinions on adult education at quite the same level as i do my lecturers in the subject and the recognised experts they cited.

close examination

skeptic — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:27:42 +0000

OK we're going to let trainers drive at 200kph. let's take a look at what they have to do to get a driver's licence shall we? And how about the standards for vehicles? I don't think either instructor certification or courseware quality control bear close examination David.

longterm damage

skeptic — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:23:35 +0000

No they won't. Prove it. The classroom training industry is in decline, hit by the double-whammy of recession and online competitors. Since the first priority is profit not professional standards, the requirements get relaxed to increase efficiency. And since the exams don't test what you really know, the pass rates will stay at acceptable levels and everyone will be happy. Except those who employ the students.

So the longterm damage to the value of the certification and to the credibility of ITIL will be great. The ITIL industry continues to eat its own future.

You appear to be arguing for a 200kph speed limit. You must be German.

What it takes to pass

DavidM — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 16:21:11 +0000

Note, I said "average person" there will always be exceptions...

That said, I think people should read the material in the relevant core books that are the primary focus for the specific exam.

I used "Cliff Notes" as a placeholder for abridged replacements or shortcuts to reading the actual core books.

The V2 exams did not REQUIRE practical experience. It helped, but I've seen some of the rubrics, and talked with people who wrote the exams based on YEARS of real experience who did not pass because they didn't have enough specific points form either the of the books (Service Support or Service Delivery). In other words, "experience required" is a myth. It might help, but the rubrics are still based on the books to PASS and maybe extra points based on experience for Distinction.

One of the people who took the V2 exams and did not pass requested a review because she wrote answers based on what she thought she got out of the class and her extensive real-world experience. The private response was that her answers were too much V3. She went nuclear because she didn't know about V3, she was writing about what they actually did (this 3Q 2007). She'd been living/working in that environment for more than 10 years.

Course on taking a multiple-choice exam. I cover aspects of that during the test because I recognize it's something most people don't on a daily basis. I know instructors who do the same thing for the essay exams for V2 (how to write specific rubric points for each question, how to count them, etc.).

For most part it's a matter of reading the entire question and asking the question that is asked, not the one you think is being asked. From that perspective there is some similarity between the Foundation and Intermediate V3 exams as well as the V2 exams.

Are the V2 tests harder? In that they are 3 hours, handwritten, in one sitting... from an endurance point yes. From a test of specific ITIL knowledge, I don't know. They're different enough that a comparison is difficult.

David

Proud Papa and...

DavidM — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 15:57:04 +0000

Both of our daughters have learned to cut through the nonsense to get to what is important. I'm proud of both of them (twins :-)).

I did jump on the theory-base. Sorry. :-)

re: literature about what works and what doesn't.

Several random articles scattered around the net, but nothing collected in one place specifically about ITIL. Working on a piece about patterns & anti-patterns that addresses a small aspect of this...

While I agree, the devil is definitely in the details, that's as much related to organizational culture as it is ITIL. For example, no management support -- something with which you're probably more familiar than you want to be. As I probably mentioned during the class, there are two aspects of that: no support to get started and support that evaporates 6, 8, 12 months into the effort (with the 2nd being more pernicious).

From the perspective of change (and that's what adopting ITIL as a way toward IT Service Management actually is)...

Any change (having nothing to do specifically with ITIL -- read Kotter, Klein, and Kanter for openers) requires buy-in, communication, commitment, quick wins, sustained effort, etc. Morphing and organization from inside-out to outside-in (and that is the intent of service management) requires change and everything else associated with the change process.

David

Some clarification

DenisO — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:56:12 +0000

David,
I think, in the end, your daughter is right regarding that view of adult learning. Certainly, for professional training, as company training budgets shrink, most companies are being much more judicious in authorizing such expenses. They will usually only send employees who are motivated to learn something that is part & parcel to their job, and for which the company perceives a benefit to itself in the long run. The learning environment has little influence on that, in my opinion.

While I am not looking to hijack the thread from the original question, I do want to point out that my use of the term 'theoretical' was probably a poor choice of words on my part. All the more embarrassing, since you did stress numerous times during the class that ITIL is real and proven, no longer theoretical. I do repeat that often when talking ITIL with collegues here at work.

I think what I wanted to say is that to me, while the concepts, at a high level, exude 'common sense', the devil is often in the details, at an actual use level. I keep looking for literature that that actually documents in a detailed manner what you describe as the 'what works and what doesn't work' lessons. This is the part that is eluding me. Can you point me to such literature?

Lastly, I think I had office politics on the brain, because recently, a VP level manager, who created and championed an ITIL transformation team here, was let go. He was the only top level management person who did more that just pay lip service towards integrating ITIL principles into what we do. It's still not clear to me how agressively that will continue, although we're being told it will. I guess we'll see.

Thanks.
Denis

What is required to pass the intermediate exams?

Interested trainer — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:59:51 +0000

I do not believe it's possible for the average person to take and pass the ITIL intermediate exams by sitting a class and using a Cliff Notes study guide. I'd take it one step further and suggest that if someone thinks they can, they are potentially devaluing the certification.
------

That's interesting. What do you think that they have to do?

- Should they read all the books (or the one relevant to the particular exam?

- Should they read the 'Official Introduction' or the KEGs? [or are those what you mean by 'Cliff's Notes' - I don't think Cliff himself has shown an interest in ITIL yet]

- Do you mean that they need practical hands-on experience in Service Management? [as was, of course the case for the V2 exams]

- Do they need a course in passing multiple-choice exams?

Or all of the above? [if you've passed all the intermediate exams I suspect you'll find my multiple choice question easy....]

Knuckleheads vs class size

DavidM — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 07:06:37 +0000

Here we may have to agree to disagree. It's up to the instructor to keep control of the classroom. I've had knuckleheads (not the term I used to describe them :-)) in classes of 10 people!

You can get the idiots-showoff-knucklehead in any class. The instructor's job is to present the material and maintain control of the class. I've actually find it easier to control larger classes because there's more peer pressure from the other students if one person tries to take over.

re: self-paced video

That isn't the solution for everyone either. In fact, I've spent more time tutoring people who thought the online class was a better (read cheaper) alternative compared to time spent teaching in a classroom.

David

I thoiught we'd settled this

DavidM — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 07:02:30 +0000

NUTS! Go find any shaved monkey (or not shaved) of your choosing and check the results. Heck get 100 monkeys or any shaving... :-)

I've seen PhD types attempt to bluff their way through an ITIL Foundation exam (and 1 double PhD try it in an Intermediate exam). Both members of Mensa (and they both bragged about their membership) and both had the same result... hint it wasn't success. Sometimes you can be too smart for your own good.

Your guide to multiple choice might help someone who has studied the Foundation material (I don't totally agree with your assessment of question 19, but that's not the point), but it's NOT a replacement for studying the material. It represents NO help for the Intermediate exams.

David

sort of agree and not... :-)

DavidM — Thu, 01 Jul 2010 06:53:57 +0000

I've taken and passed each of the ITIL V3 exams -- including Managing Across the Lifecycle. In other words, you DO know someone who has taken the pure V3 route -- and I'm NOT an employee of any training company; I'm independent.

Like you, I'm proud of the ITIL Expert on my resume, I earned it. Also like you, I don't pretend to be a know-it-all on the subject. Quite the opposite, I continue to study and to learn. The ITIL Expert is like earning a black-belt in Karate, it doesn't mean you stop learning (at least if you're honest about it :-)).

David